Posterwire.com is a movie poster weblog. From images of the latest Hollywood one-sheets to vintage movie posters, this film poster weblog hopes to offer a bit of insight into film key art.
Ang Lee’s new film, Brokeback Mountain, starring Heath Ledger and Jake Gyllenhaal, isn’t your run-of-the-mill western… or love story. Commonly referred to as the “gay cowboy movie” (although the film’s trailer and Oscar buzz imply it could rise above that label), the film could prove a tough sell to certain audiences.
For the Brokeback Mountain movie poster, the film’s producer James Schamus wanted to emulate the one-sheet for the biggest film of all time — the ultimate “chick flick” — the Titanic movie poster.
When it came time to design the poster for the film, Schamus didn’t research posters of famous Westerns for ideas. He looked at the posters of the 50 most romantic movies ever made. “If you look at our poster,” he says, “you can see traces of our inspiration, ‘Titanic’.”
In this case, “traces of our inspiration” means “traces of an exact copy”.
Comparing the two posters side-by-side, the similarities become clear — the layout of Heath Ledger’s shoulder even matches the clothing “steam iron” ship of the Titanic one-sheet.
From my blog:
Take your man to see Brokeback Mountain!
Your husband, boyfriend or Match.com date needs to see Brokeback Mountain. You must insist that he see this movie. Beg. Plead. Withhold sex. Do whatever you need to do. Watching two cowboys get it on will do him good.
If he resists, drop this line on him: “I’d wonder about the sexuality of a man who isn’t secure enough to watch a gay-themed movie.†In a world where straight men have evolved to be cool with pedicures, moisturizer and plucking their eyebrows, they can certainly get over their issues with a little same sex nookie on the big screen.
Yeah, sure, he laughs at Will & Grace, but his queasiness with male affection is why Will has had about as much on-screen romance as Jessica Fletcher. We’ll never have a truly open society until straight men get over their visceral reactions to seeing two men kissing.
Most people, especially men, are still way too hung up over man-on-man action. Heath Ledger, who plays the role of Ennis, knows why some men are uncomfortable with the movie. “I suspect it’s a fear that they are going to enjoy it,†he told Newsweek. “They don’t understand that you are not going to become sexually attracted to men by recognizing the beauty of a love story between two men.†Ladies, give your man permission to shed his macho veneer for two hours. And bring enough tissue for both of you.
The buzz is that this is a universal story of love that anyone can appreciate. You don’t have to be gay to relate to a gay love story any more than you have to be straight to cry at the end of Titanic. I didn’t watch As Good As It Gets just to see Greg Kinnear play the prototypical gay neighbor. I’m gay, but I could relate when Harry and Sally. Jerry Maguire had me at hello too.
In Details magazine, Jake Gyllenhaal, who plays Jack, observes that the movie would have made just as much sense if his character had been a woman. Yes, but I’ve seen that movie—about a thousand times. It’s our turn.
I’m so excited about this movie, I can hardly see straight. Yes, I want to see some hot, steamy love scenes, but even more than that, I want to see your boyfriend cry.
Comment posted by Marty on 11/21/05 9:41 PM.Start off by reading the short story that the film is based on.
Comment posted by hadassah on 11/22/05 4:13 AM.It’ll get your eyes used to crying . It has soooo much “soul”. It should have been titled Brokeheart Mountain.
Getting back to the poster design… I think this treatent is very clever. I could not have seen the Titanic inspiration without you pointing it out, but now it is clear.
Smart design.
Comment posted by Julius on 11/22/05 8:14 AM.Are you crazy? Stop trying so hard to be clever.
Comment posted by na on 11/23/05 1:35 PM.Hello BLT. ;)
Comment posted by admin on 11/23/05 1:53 PM.Yes, the similarities are stunning. I was intrigued when I read that quote in the Newsweek story, thanks for digging it up to compare.
(But I’m still more amazed that they managed to airbrush Jake into Jared Leto in that pic. Prettier than Jake has ever looked before, but I greatly prefer the more rugged Jake in the film. (Though I would take either. hahaha.) Especially when Jake has the three-day growth . . . yow.
Comment posted by Dave Cullen on 11/29/05 4:08 PM.What a load of crap…Marty, I’m sorry your parents were too selfish to teach you the facts of life. My cats knows the difference between human and animal, but apparently you haven’t figured out the birds and the bees yet. All of the “gays” I have ever known are 100% selfish, shallow and immature.
Now we’re rating posters for something that our grandparents would have been ashamed of (or should be ashamed of). Shame on us for letting this get this far.
America is done. This is exactly how it ended for Ancient Rome. How sad for our great country. I know someone will write some scathing reply to my post (and I won’t return to this site to read it), but I have history on my side.
Comment posted by Frakety Frak on 12/7/05 10:11 PM.So what you’re saying is your cat prefers Titanic to Brokeback Mountain? That must be one amazing cat. ;)
Comment posted by admin on 12/7/05 10:17 PM.(I’m sorry you won’t be back to read this.)
Loved the poster. It also reminded me of The Hunted with Tommy Lee Jones:
Comment posted by frank on 12/8/05 8:52 AM.http://www.keepmyfile.com/image/734fc9256858
Frak, history will brush you off its sleeve and forget about you, just as it did your ancestors who heralded greater rights for women and minorities as the end of our great country. We are now a more tolerant nation than we ever were before, and America is still here, and better for it.
I guess you did come back to read this, didn’t you? ;)
Comment posted by Martin on 12/8/05 9:17 AM.Actually, Frak, it ended for the Western Roman Empire after they adopted Christianity as the state religion and began persecuting pagans and adopting Pauline views on sexuality.
It ended for the Eastern Roman, that is, the Byzantine, Empire after centuries of assaults by Roman Christian Western Europe and the Mulsim Ottoman Empire.
Perhaps you should learn something about history before seeking to draw lessons from it.
Comment posted by Rodger Donaldson on 12/8/05 4:42 PM.hahaha. Right. And the pigs fly.
Comment posted by Raoul on 12/9/05 8:18 AM.Give me a fucking break, They share similar design structures, one uses a huge picture of a fucking boat and the other doesn’t, maybe you overlooked that one. Titanic uses a faded image with a mask on it, the other doesn’t. Do some homework or have some design sense before you call people out for stealing a design.
Comment posted by Tyler on 12/9/05 3:27 PM.Don’t recall saying they “stole” the design — we simply were drawing attention to the “traces of inspiration” producer’s quote disparity — the image comparison is there for people to judge for themselves. (Some judging more harshly than others, apparently.)
But yes, you are right, there is no “huge fucking boat” on the Brokeback Mountain poster — you got us there.
Comment posted by admin on 12/9/05 3:41 PM.Marty, your first post is so typical of the desensitizing agenda. I even read a writeup on MSN’s frontpage that said all the same stuff. “get over it and just go see the movie.” No, I will not get over it. Thank goodness it’s rated R, I would hate for my 10 year old boy to see this and fall in love, the way my 14 year old daughter did when she saw Titanic. Oh but wait, your BORN gay…right? No. The human race is so totally influencable, as evidenced by the huge increase of the gay population, which parallels the ‘tolerance’ that the media has forced on the people for the past 30 years. How about a movie where a gay man becomes aware of the truth, rejects homosexuality, and finds true love with a woman? Can I force you to go watch it? Maybe I’ll have your boyfriends withhold sex until you do. I really think you are all kidding yourselves, and the more people in society that is tolerant, the more people that are “out”, the easier it is to keep your blinders on and ignore the truth. That in itself is selfish, because you corrupt others to feel secure in the lie. You know that little itch in you mind that says “I suppose it is possible that I am gay because of envirnmental factors in my life”…but you never dare say it, because it is contrary to your movement. You lie to yourself to justify your self imposed gag order with “just because I MIGHT have been influeced into a gay orientation doesn’t mean that’s the typical way it happens to my fellow gays. I’ll keep it to myself.” Well you know what? You ALL are doing it. For a while, I had many addictions. I know what it’s like to justify your actions. It’s the easy road. But ahhh the joy of making through the long tough journey to abandoning the lies.
Comment posted by Mark on 12/12/05 10:56 AM.Wow Mark, learn how to spell before you spam.
Comment posted by Karen on 12/12/05 11:02 AM.By the way, I’m sorry I had to do that on a weblog that is meant to appreciate poster art. But Marty started it. It really doesn’t belong here, but as long as his post is left up, so too should my post be left up.
As for the artwork, I think it is pretty well done. But the parallel with the Titanic poster is not meant to be the “huge f—ing boat” that’s missing. It is with the general method of utilizing a large black space of the actual artwork to house the printed text, instead of just having a picture above the text at the bottom. It’s a common method that works well. Since no baot was available for this movie, they used the jacket area.
“”have some design sense”" ??? Tyler, You are showing your own ignorance.
Comment posted by Mark on 12/12/05 11:22 AM.Sorry about the mispellings and grammer. They are mostly from typing too fast.
Interesting comment though. You are insinuating that I’m stupid. Therefore my comments have no validity. That’s a pretty common tactic, but meaningless and irrelevent. Re-read my post, and try to ignore the irrelevant typos.
Comment posted by Mark on 12/12/05 11:51 AM.“Marty started it,” brilliant, what a stellar display of maturity!
I truly hate to parallel homosexuality with mental illness, but for this one example I feel it’s got enough similarities to justify a comparison — schizophrenia is not considered to be genetic by psychologists — in that there doesn’t seem to be a gene that directly causes it. Researchers think there could be a gene that causes people to be susceptible to whatever causes it, but apparently it has “external” causes. That said, do you think you could go up to a schizophrenic and tell him he can fix his affliction with the power of prayer? Or that, because a schizophrenic became that way because of environmental factors (which are probably out of his control), he chose to become that way or could consciously change it? Just because someone isn’t born a certain way (and most schizophrenics don’t “become” schizophrenic until adulthood) doesn’t mean they decide to be that way or that they can change it, otherwise people wouldn’t need to spend so much money on medicine. (It’s not a perfect parallel, of course, since schizophrenia is a chemical imbalance and homosexuality doesn’t seem to be — hence why the former can be changed with medication and the latter can’t. Because you can’t change homosexuality with medication, you’re pretty much out of luck, Mark.) So, even if what you say is true and people become homosexual because of environmental factors and no genetics are involved, that doesn’t necessarily mean that they can change it.
Just so people don’t get on my back about comparing homosexuality to a mental illness when the APA states that it isn’t, I chose schizophrenia because it’s a condition that doesn’t appear to be genetic, is something that people try to change or reverse, and can’t be done just by willing it to be so. I hate to post this off-topic rant, but I can’t stand to see poor logic go unquestioned. It’s an unfortunate compulsion of mine.
To get back on topic, I definitely see the similarity between the two posters, and it has much to do with composition. A large, dark, triangular shape at the bottom/centre, criss-crossed heads at the top, clouds at the side(s), even the words are in almost the same place. Sorry to burst everyone’s bubble, but the composition is pretty much a direct copy; the subject matter in the poster is irrelevant (even though it’s still pretty similar, despite the lack of boat). If someone made a dress and someone else made exactly the same design of dress but in a different colour, it wouldn’t be a totally different dress. I guess there were some interesting changes to this poster, but rather than an entirely different person’s work, it feels like maybe two different sketches an artist did for the same painting to see which composition he liked better. Just my opinion, though.
Comment posted by Jora on 12/17/05 12:13 AM.Wow. Another post that attacks me personally before discussing the issue. My point with “Mark started it” is relevant because I would not have posted this in a ‘poster art forum’. But wherever the homosexual propoganda is displayed without a counterpoint, impressionable minds are in danger. It has nothing to do with my level of maturity. One thing we agree on, it does have “external” causes.
But the big problem with your schizophrenia analogy is this: There is not a group of schizophrenics that are trying to validate schizophrenia as an acceptable condition that we should all embrace. In fact, it is very troublesome to those who suffer from it and would gladly go through the work required to be free of it’s grip.
You call my logic poor, but did not give any examples of my poor logic. Again, a tactic that discredits me without actually saying anything.
Here’s the cliff’s notes of what you said that actually pertained to my post. “You are immature” “You have poor logic”. Mixed in with a long comparison to schizophrenia. The reader is left thinking I’m the bad guy.
Really, I’m not angery at gay people. I have family members that are gay. I love them very much. The problem that I have is the way the world is being desensitised to accept a behavior that does not make God happy. If you love and defend something that displeases the Lord, you are lost. You become angry at the Lord for imposing such rules. Eventually, bit by bit, you stop going to church, you find vilidity in worldly things, and then…you deny Christ. It’s not just homosexuality, it’s pornography, prostitution, theft, adultry, ect. Please note, that I am not without these sins, and the least of mine is as bad as the worst of any. But I detest my sins. I try to repent of them. I do not defend them. I do not try to convince others that my sins are acceptable. If I did then not only am I separating myself from the Lord, but separating others as well. I become no better than the serpent who said, “Did God really say that? It will be Okay. Go ahead and do it.”
You may find yourself somewher in the middle of the journey, or well beyond the choice. But if there is at all a chance, hold tight to Christ. You can argue and even win, but please don’t let it get to the point that you deny Christ.
Comment posted by Mark on 12/29/05 12:45 PM.It’s interesting how this post continues to generate discussion, no matter how far it strays from the original topic.
Considering Brokeback Mountain will slowly be released to more and more cities after the New Year (and may pick up a few Oscar nominations), I wonder if new people will continue to find their way here. (I’d be interested to know where/how some of the previous commenters found this site/post.)
Comment posted by admin on 12/29/05 1:15 PM.God commanded that I make sense of the poster for Brokeback Mountain. I must tell her that there’s much divisive debate still in the world and to refrain from bringing it to an end.
Comment posted by Neil on 01/1/06 9:12 AM.Ever since I saw the poster, I knew it looked familiar with the intimate-yet-not-too-intimte stance of the men. Stolen, influenced or not, the result was that my mind saw a similarity. Thanks Marty.
As for Christ, I’m no follower so there’s no point in arguing. But I wish people didn’t depend on books, what people say, movies or television to create their morals. Follow the Golden Rule It’s obvious that murder, stealing and many other things are wrong. Gays and the imaginary agenda are pretty harmless. And while environmental factors may have contributed to some people becoming homosexuals, some were just plain born that way…perhaps as God intended.
Comment posted by Wil on 01/4/06 12:38 AM.Well, some call it an agenda, others call it a ‘movement’. But to call it imaginary is misinformed. The AFA is just one site of many that shows the steps that are being taken by the movement. These are just the facts. Read these articles for a start: (check out the “other Articles when you scroll down)
Comment posted by Mark on 01/9/06 7:33 AM.http://www.afa.net/homosexual_agenda/Default.asp?y=2003&m=10&id=7
What exactly are you thanking Marty for? He didn’t say a thing about the poster.
Comment posted by Mark on 01/10/06 12:06 PM.Some people call it an agenda, some call it a movement. But to call it “imaginary” is wishful thinking. There are plenty of articles to read that document the way people’s minds are being conditioned to look down on “closed minded” people like me. The Golden rule works fine for the obvious wrongdoings like murder, but homosexuality WAS on the list of “obvious” just 60 years ago. How much more conditioning will it take before society looks down on those of us who try to “oppress” child-adult sexual relations? It has already begun. There are authors out there that are spreading ideas like this, along with the desensitizing that go on through the illegal child porn already in circulation. It is a two-pronged attack. Each prong consists of many individuals. Is there an official agenda for it? Not with a leader, or even an organization. But when enough desensitizing has been accomplished, there will be some outspoken advocate that will step up, call together the goats, and there you have an organization ready to topple the old law. When this happens, will you then be able to look back and see that this is how homosexuality did it? Larry Flint did it for “mainstream” pornography. No one is born gay. Society shapes our preferences. These influences have evolved over thousands of years. If you trust your own instincts, you are still a slave to the influences that you’ve been subjected to. For this reason, we have scripture to test all things. Scripture is not outdated; it simply is incompatible with today’s society. In my home I have a rule. No touching the electrical outlets. But just because my rule is incompatible with my 2 year old’s desire, does not mean that the rule should be abolished. Step aside from political correctness and your own desires for just a minute or two. Does it make God happy? Proud? Scripture will answer these questions. Can your conscious answer them without coming to your own desired conclusion?
Whoops! My bad. Thanks to whomever made the first analysis.
Well, if you believe people can be turned gay then you might feel there’s an agenda. The truth is it’s more of a civil rights movement and for the corporations, a money maker. Gays would like to be treated fairly and companies don’t care so much who’s gay as they do about what brings in the bucks. It may have been “obvious” 60 years ago that being gay was wrong but go back several centuries in other parts of the world and it was okay back then. And if no one is born gay, then no one is born straight. But if society shapes our sexuality, shouldn’t we all be straight? And where, when and how does it happen to people never exposed to such things such as the characters in Brokeback Mountain (had to try and work it back something close to the subject somehow)? No one can turn gay anymore than one can turn straight. We can choose whom we sleep with but not whom we want to sleep with. Why would anyone choose to be gay with so many people visciously against it? The increasing acceptance of the world is simply allowing people to be themselves. And while one might only focus on the similarities between what’s happening with homosexuals and things such as pornography, the comparison can also be made to the Black movement and women’s rights. Desensitizing people to turn them from racism, gender oppression, ageism, homophobia and any form of bigotry is a good thing.
Oh, and some rules are bad. That’s why we have amendments and laws overturned such as the requirement that one has to own land before being able to vote.
Comment posted by Wil on 01/18/06 1:11 AM.First off, Wil, thank you for your intelligent discussion. You make some good points.
You are right on the money (no pun intended) about the corporations willing to market wherever there is money. Corporations have long since sold out moral values for cash. With the advancement of marketing techniques, corporations have great influence on our preferences, often devoid of morality.
However, I think you assume too much. Just because I say people are not born gay, does NOT mean that they “therefore are not born straight”. We are in fact all born straight. Shouldn’t we all be straight, you ask? Yes, we should, and we are. But the world has not been without the corruption of evil influence for a long, long time. I’m not sure how it all happened. But I’m not surprised that other cultures in past centuries has failed at this morality test. But that is not an argument to advocate it. There was an author whose book entitled “Same-Sex Desire and Love in Greco-Roman Antiquity and in the Classical Tradition of the West” is just a prime example of how past civilizations can be wrong. (by the way, that book was never published because of it’s positive spin on adult-child sex between males) Read more here:
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=46447
Also, the parallel you make with the Black movement and women’s rights doesn’t work either, because equality by race and gender is a good thing. Equality for moral choices is not. If it were, there would be nothing considered criminal. That last list should really be two lists. By lumping “homophobia” in with “racism, gender oppression, and ageism” you have essentially made innocent a practice that should be repented of. It is supposed to carry guilt. Race, gender, and age are all truely blameless. Neat trick.
By the way, this brings me back to the ultimate goal of evil: to make us not feel guilt for our sins, to not repent of them, but rather to fight for the right to sin, and be angry at God for not approving of our sins. We choose a side, and it is not God’s side. This is how all sins are, not just homosexuality. A poor thief will say “I had to steal to feed my family”. If he then says, “I didn’t want to do it, but I was in a tight spot, I am truely sorry” then he is forgiven. But if he says, “I will not apologize for taking what wasn’t mine. You just don’t understand what it is like.” then he is not forgiven. THIS is the goal of evil. Not so much to convince us to sin, but to make us proud of our sins.
Comment posted by Mark on 01/18/06 1:26 PM.To get this mind-numbing discussion back on track for a second, since the producer readily admitted how they borrowed elements from “Titanic”, I don’t think anyone could be offended or upset. The design elements were purposely lifted from the Titanic poster because it works. Both are love stories, both share the same sense of something big coming between two people. It works.
And to Mark and the rest of his ilk, as the only gay poster here, I proclaim myself ambassador, and as such, I represent the gay community. I think all of us in the gay community would really like to give you a big “fuck you”, and to come out of that closet. I know I did. The only people who have problems with gays are gay themselves. Of course, you being to the right of Hitler on matters of christianity and politics doesn’t help your case. What’s it gonna take?
Oh and when do I get my pink triangle to wear? Certainly, this country is heading fast into the direction of 1940s Germany. But you embrace those old-fashioned values don’t you? ;)
To think anyone who comes to this site, with the intention of discussing art, could be such a bigoted asshole puzzles me. Usually open-mindedness and tolerance go together in the art world. Obviously something must be attracting your penchant for fascism.
Finally, what a great site. Who knew there were other movie poster geeks out there. :)
Comment posted by sst on 01/22/06 10:00 AM.Who knew there were other movie poster geeks out there.
I’m guessing most of the people commenting in this thread are not “movie poster geeks”. ;)
(I’m still curious how some of the commenters, who have no interest in the original subject — the Brokeback Mountain movie poster — found this thread.)
Comment posted by admin on 01/22/06 10:10 AM.Hey that’s true, they’re more like “jesus freaks”. Hey it rhymes though.
Be careful, the same powers that compelled the faithful followers of the big J to come here to denounce your horrible homsexual propaganda, could be turned around on you for supporting my (and the rest of those gays) agenda to destroy the very fabric of our great nation. :)
Praise the almighty James Dobson.
Comment posted by sst on 01/22/06 10:25 AM.“Your husband, boyfriend or Match.com date needs to see Brokeback Mountain. You must insist that he see this movie. Beg. Plead. Withhold sex. Do whatever you need to do. Watching two cowboys get it on will do him good.”
Marty: Your comments disgust me.
My husband and I discussed seeing the movie and he didn’t want to. That was that. I might have gone if he had said yes, but neither of us was up to it.
Suppose we had disagreed. It depends on the nature of the disagreement, but I do not beg, I do not plead and I do not withhold sex when we disagree. That is disgusting.
My attitude towards human relationships, esp. the sacred one I have with my husband, is that unless you _really_ want something, you should compromise. Begging, pleading and withholding sex are simply not done. Especially withholding sex. The only kind of man who would say this is a misogynist. You are a gay woman-hater–the worst kind.
I read the short story and thought it was slick, second rate and shallow. In the short story Ennis repeatedly forces anal sex on his unwilling wife. Doesn’t she suffer physical consequences from this? The story doesn’t say. Emotional consequences? Story doesn’t say. This is great writing? Not in my opinion. Can you tell us what are the physical and emotional consequences of suffering unconsensual anal sex for years, and does the movie tell us about this?
Comment posted by yekkkaterina on 01/23/06 7:53 AM.TO SST: You haven’t made a single comment that compels me to believe that the Bible is wrong in it’s denouncement of same sex intercourse. But, once again, a gay advocate rallies the troups by merely comparing me to a Nazi, saying “fuck you”, accousing me of being gay, and calling me an asshole. (are those points your making? because I missed ‘em) You also made a subliminal connection between “old fashioned family values” and “Nazis”. Do you REALLY think that it’s a good creed for society to refute family values? I never said “let’s round em up and kill em”. I have family that are gay, and I don’t wish any pain to anyone. You calling be a biggot is like an anarchist calling the police fascits (but lo, you probably LIKE that comparison). It seems as though the only tactic that gay advocates ever use is to attack me with hate speech without ever speaking to the points I make. Shameful. Which brings me to your next post, where you say “Jesus Freaks”. You have attached a strong negative association to believing in Jesus. YOU make them choose “gay pride” or “Jesus Christ”. Let’s forget about homosexuality for just a second. Put it all aside. Do you not believe in Jesus? Ahhh. The true gay agenda –the one not even gays themselves are aware of. —Mission accompished, devil. They refute the Lord.— Here’s what I ask of you. Pray for the answers. Be open-minded to the thought that we maybe aren’t sure if God approves or not. Read the NEW TESTAMENT, it say’s nothing of homosexuality, so you don’t have to be afraid. Find God’s gift of salvation in Jesus Christ. Even if you remain gay, the true agenda will have failed.
Comment posted by Mark on 01/24/06 8:33 AM.ADMIN: I happened across this site when I was browsing the internet for discussions on the movie subject matter. I really would not have posted in this forum, but the very first post is a very aggressive statement (that doesn’t discuss the poster at all, by the way). I’m sorry that it has turned into this. I’d be curious how many other “non-relevent” websites and blogs have a gay endorsing,family value bashing,be-tolerent-or-be-shunned propoganda mixed in to a message post. Well, this is one location that it didn’t squeak by without a counterpoint. Just a drop in the bucket, I know, but at least it’s something.
Comment posted by Mark on 01/24/06 1:59 PM.Wow!! I come to this page lookin for an article about the poster similarities, and somehow end up in the middle of a battlefield!! After reading all these replies, I have to apologize to the Admin, because I’m about to share my two cents on the topic at hand. (ie, NOT the movie posters!)
First of all, I am a self-proclaimed Jesus Freak. I’d even go so far as to say you’d be correct in classifying me as a *gasp!* fundamentalist. However, I’m not blinded by stupidity and hatred like most. For one thing, moral and ethical rules are a product of one’s belief system. If God thinks homosexuality is wrong, but John Doe doesn’t believe in God, then he’s not going to think that being gay is a sin. To the nonbeliever, the only rules that apply are those written by men. Therefore, the aforementioned John Doe won’t rob a bank, because stealing is a crime punishable by law, but he won’t think twice about going out with his neighbor Jim, because being gay is not a CRIME. Now, before the religious/moral folks on here get heated and come looking to lynch me, let me reiterate: God’s rules only apply to those who believe in HIM. Like I said, I happen to fall into that group. I try to live a good life, and consider myself to be an okay person, if not exactly an upstanding citizen. But you know what? I think the people on here who are condemning gays are ignorant and should be ashamed. You call yourself a Christian, yet you spew all this hate at John and Jim. Why? Jesus didn’t turn anybody away. He was a kind and gentle man who looked out for those who were down on their luck. And yet you think you’re somehow ABOVE Him? That although He loved the WHOLE WORLD, it’s beneath you to love someone as disgusting and morally debased as a queer? Puh-lease!! Now I’m not going to get into whether or not God approves of homosexuality. As someone stated already, there’s no mention of the subject in the New Testament. But let’s look at it this way. God is the Heavenly Father, right? (Even those who don’t beleive He exists know that this is what He represents.) Well as a parent, I know my kids have done things that I don’t agree with. In fact, they’ve done some pretty horrible things. But I never stopped loving them! I never said “You know what kids, you’re just too bad. I don’t want you anymore.” So why would God, who is the living incarnation of love, do the same to His children? Like I said, I’m not going to try to determine what God’s standpoint is. That’s between Him and the gay populace. But IMO, we should respect each other just a tad more.
PS- If you’re gonna reply and rip me a new one, you better do a good job. I won’t quit until I’m proved wrong. :)
Comment posted by Misty on 01/25/06 7:25 AM.That’s good stuff. I’m not about ripping anyone. In fact, I’m not even condemning gays. Lot’s of people say “Live and let live”. Or “There not hurting anyone”. Well, yes and no. I don’t condemn anyone, because I am not the judge. It is not people, but actions & moral choices that should be condemned. It is wrong to mainstream the advertisement of promiscuity. I remember in gradeschool when they said “Just say no to drugs”. I thought to myself, “there is no way I’LL ever do drugs. What a stupid thing to do. Who in thier right mind would willingly do drugs?” But then in highschool I witnessed the pleasure that some friends had, and the apparent “no consequences” for them the next day. Weekend after weekend I watched the party, and then the school week would be business as usual. These kids weren’t going to the emergency room. They were still doing thier homework and getting good grades. Plus, they were having fun doing a little bit of drugs. It wasn’t long before I gave it a try. I liked it, and I kept doing it. This was social conditioning. When children are exposed to the “option” of having a homosexual relationship, and it is accepted in society, why wouldn’t they try it? They already have strong bonds with a few friends in school, plus their hormones are beginning to come into the picture. There is no reason left to keep these kids from trying it. The taboo is being removed. Plus, they are at the same point in development, so there appears to be a perfect compatibility that you just can’t share with a girl. And like I said before, once you think of yourself as gay, you become angry at biblical teaching. You question scripture and seek a more “enlightened” belief system. One that is open to homosexuality. Try to read a bible to a gay man. Just try. Even if you don’t talk about homosexuality. Just try reading the gospel. You will be shunned. This is the problem that the gay movement has created. Either you’re gay, or you’re christian, but not both. (there is a group out there that claims both, but it is a small percentage of homosexuals — so there is some hope).
So this is the delima. We don’t want to outcast existing gay people. We don’t want them to feel discriminated against. But we also don’t want to openly say it’s okay to our children that haven’t even experienced sexual arousal yet. You can associate sexual arousal with ANYTHING on a subconscious level. This is simple psychology. There are more gay people per capita in this country today than ever before. Some may argue that there have always been lots of gay people, but theye are just now coming out. Though there is no way to prove either way, just by inspection of how the psychology of marketing works it’s easy to see. Now, If your gay, fine. I treat you the same as I treat everyone. But STOP TELLING ME I HAVE TO TEACH MY CHILDREN THAT IT IS OKAY! The media is forcing this idea down our throats that we are either tolerant and accepting (which opens the door to “endorsing”) or we are “hateful condemners”. I am neither.
Comment posted by Mark on 01/25/06 8:58 AM.Lastly, since you call me “ignorant”, which means I don’t know the facts, please give me the facts that I am lacking. You did pretty good in your post, but you still succumbed to calling me a hateful name without any substance behind the name you called me. Why do smart people always ruin thier arguments with that tactic?
“You call yourself a Christian, yet you spew all this hate at John and Jim.”
That’s an unfounded propoganda line. The reader is left thinking I spew hate, and connects it to Christianity —that’s not something you want to do is it?
What exactly have I said that was hateful to anyone. I’m debating morals here, not people. Please, I am begging you, quote my hateful words from any of the above posts so that I can avoid this in the future.
On the contrary, the only hateful spewing in this thread thus far is from the other folks. Honestly - quote me.
Comment posted by Mark on 01/25/06 9:35 AM.Dear Mark,
Whoah!! Never said I was singling you out, but you seem to feel as though I am. I typed all this out once, then my pc crashed, so forgive me if I don’t go to all the effort again. (It’s my lazy day off today.)
#1 Promiscuity. Since when does gay automatically equal slutty? I don’t like the idea of sleeping around, and evidently neither do you. How did that even come up? Straight people sleep around too (some not all, same as gays) so I don’t even regard that as factoring into the equation.
#2 Use of the word ignorant. I didn’t specify that YOU were ignorant. Maybe you are and maybe you aren’t. I don’t know you well enough to judge. Hating the gay lifestyle doesn’t make one ignorant, it merely makes them homophobic. Hating gay PEOPLE makes one ignorant. If that applies to you, then yes you could say I am calling you ignorant. I think that homosexuality is not a part of God’s plan. But that doesn’t mean I hate those who disagree. Just as I don’t hate you for disagreeing with me. I do respect and understand what you said about not wanting your kids to think it’s okay. (Nice drug analogy too. Couldn’t have said it better myself.) That’s your choice and if it works for you then fine. God will judge us all as He sees fit. But hating someone just for being gay IS in fact ignorant and foolish.
#3 Speaking of hate… Why shouldn’t I associate hate with christianity? The Crusades were all about Jesus. The Nazis started out with (somewhat warped) Christian beliefs. Wars have been fought since time began over spiritual beliefs, and Christianity is among them. Doesn’t mean I’m proud of it. In fact, I think it’s insulting to God to go do a bunch of heinous acts and say that “It’s okay, we did it for Him!” It’s been my observation that a lot of people who call themselves Christian percieve homosexuality as a sin, and therfore they feel the need to pass judgement on the “evildoer” and condemn him/her for their lifestyle. I find these to be dangerous waters. Look how many times you’ve watched the news and seen some zealot who does what they think is right, and in doing so they destroy families and communities.
I think that’s all I wanted to say. Let me know if I left anything out. :)
Comment posted by Misty on 01/25/06 11:51 AM.First of all, I’d like to add my apologies to the admin for the twist that this has taken. I had tried to be somewhat on topic and continue to try to say something back on the original subject matter. And thank you Mark for your thought-out responses, all of which I respect and find interesting. And now, there is soooo much to respond to.
The poster I found interesting because it borders on showing intimacy between the men but is far from being blatent. If it were, I might have seen the similarity to Titanic sooner. It’s also interesting because to me, it’s an awkward shot with Jack’s face partially blocked and in the other direction. On top of that, he’s apparently right up against Ennis yet they are not obviously touching and it seems almost as if he’s not in the same picture. The relationship in the Titanic poster is very different and both represent the characters’ relationships in their respective movies.
And now for all that other stuff!
We are all born inherently bi-sexual as are all sexually reproductive creatures. For what we ultimtely become, for some, it is a product of environment but for others it is not. I do not believe we can all control what it is we truly desire. Some like chocolate and strawberries. Some like one and detest the other. Some dislike both. Who was taught to like one or the other? Some don’t believe in bi-sexuals but who are we to tell people what they are or should be? I believe some people are exclusively gay, some are straight and some are in between. And a person can be married to a person of the opposite sex, with children, never having had a homosexual experience. But that doesn’t make him or her straight. Deep down, that person could be gay. Just the same that a person who has had one or a few homosexul experiences, who has decided it’s not for him or her, is not gay but heterosexual.
Oh, and maybe “Same-Sex Desire and Love in Greco-Roman Antiquity and in the Classical Tradition of the West†would have been published if was exclusively about homosexual adults.
The parallel I made with gays and other oppressed groups works perfectly fine becuase being gay is not a choice. Yes, that is my belief but that is the primary basis for all these arguments. So then being gay is as blameless as race, gender and age. No trick there. Just a different belief.
And how evil is it to make someone feel guilt for doing nothing wrong? Depression and even suicide is often a result of what young men go though when they feel guilty about being gay. Those that have accepted who they are are often live happy, fulfilling lives. That did not happen in Brokeback Mountain because society led these men into living what they believed would be right, the “heterosexual agenda” if you will. Had they gone down the other path in a world where it’s all right to be gay, they and the people in their lives would have been much happier. It’s because of the oppressive society that so many ultimately got hurt. I think that this is one message Ang Lee hopes to reach people with.
Now with the whole Christian thing, what I’ve learned is that saying you’re Christian means little more than you believe in God and Jesus Christ. Plenty of “Christians” steal, murder, lie and cheat; are Black, White, democrats, homosexuals, millionaires, etc. What I hope is that anyone reading all these posts realizes that this is only a small cross-section of people and none of the opinions stated here (or anywhere) should be belived to represent the opinions of an entire group of people.
Again with the gay agenda? Agenda implies there’s an ultimate goal in mind and that’s certainly not going on with the various different groups. They all have different purposes. And if you think it’s to turn people away from Christ, you are very, very wrong. There are gays throughout the country that will never turn away from God. There are gay ministers, priests and so forth. There are churches that accept gay members. There are churches that marry gay couples. Like most of this country, most gays are Christian. I didn’t think so myself until recently when I found out how many gay people I know go to church and can recommend gay-friendly churches. I will buy that there is a gay movement, one to protect the rights of individuals that are gay because no one should fear for their lives or livelihood simply for what they are.
There are promiscuous gays and there are monogomous ones. There are Christians who belive homosexuality is a sin and those who don’t. Unfortunately, it’s often only the loudest and angriest we hear from so clearly. And the gays that speak so fiercely against Christianity are most likely those that have lengthy experiences with those on the other extreme end. It is those Christians that are turning people away from the bible. It’s people like Fred Phelps who say it’s “gay pride†or “Jesus Christâ€.
I like what Misty says. Christianity is for Christians and not for non-believers. We do choose to believe in what we want to, be it in aliens, ghosts, angels, Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, whatever. The important thing is to be at least tolerant of others’ beliefs and hopefully respect them.
All people should have the “option” of having a homosexual relationship. No one should be coerced into it or be fearful of it. There’s nothing wrong with thinking being gay is okay and experimenting. Some have tried it and never gone back. Others discovered who they are. Plenty of straight people, young and old, accept gays or even have had a gay experience and it’s done nothing to make them any less straight.
Now if you do believe all gays are so by choice, my first response is you’re dead wrong. But that is your belief and that is fine. That will also satisfy many arguments against homosexuality. But if you teach children that at an early age, there will likely come a very difficult time when that child grows up and makes gay friends or becomes gay. Hopefully, he or she will be open-minded and strong enough to make the realization that it hurts no one and therefore all right.
Comment posted by Wil on 01/26/06 1:12 AM.*jumps up and applauds* Bravo Wil!! Beautiful post!! (You even hit some of the points I was unable to articulate) Well done sir.
Comment posted by Misty on 01/26/06 5:22 AM.Great! Two well thought out posts in a row! Thanks Wil & Misty for being civil!
I’ll just go in order starting with Misty.
#1. My promiscuity comment was actually meant as another parallel, actions that should not be glorified, but that “don’t hurt anybody”. I admit though, that it was partly a bit of spillover from a different level of this discussion, evidences that the homosexual lifestyle is self destructive, which has been thoroughly documented by the gay and lesbian surveys.
take a quick look at this and then come back.
http://www.frc.org/get.cfm?i=IS04C02
#2. Thank you, for clearing that up. Hating ANYONE for ANY reason is ignorant, you are right. I’ve said it before, I am not against people, I am against the glorification of immorality. The problem is (and you pointed this out well already) that my morality is not necessarily Marty’s morality. This is what happens when you leave it up to our own experiences to define what’s right and wrong. However, the ebb and flow of society has a funny way of exposing our errors many years after the choices are made. You can judge anything by it’s fruits. Again, read that page and come right back!
http://www.frc.org/get.cfm?i=IS04C02
By the way, that is hard data. As much as some folks wish it weren’t true, it is. Hollywood has a tendency to show straight folks being nice to gay folks. This presents the illusion that straight folks should accept homosexuality as an equal alternative to heterosexuality. I behave like that in life, being nice and even having a good repoir, but I do not accept homosexuality as equal, I accept the PEOPLE as equal. As soon as I start rejecting homosexuality, I am percieved as a people hater (gay people). It simply isn’t true. (By the way, “homophobic” has become a derrogotory term thanks to society evolving the word, and Webster’s listing it as “irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against homosexuality or homosexuals”. I am not afraid, averted to, nor discriminating against gay folks. They should receive all the rights I do. Including the right to marry someone of the opposite sex (smirk). I would like a new word…something like “homosympatic: one who opposses the open lobbying for a public acceptance of the gay lifestyle, while remaining sympathetic to the individuals that are a part of it”. (not bad) Before SST call’s me a hypocrite, let me remind you that I spend every holiday with two gay family members and share hugs and even my roof. I love them very much. I only wish they could see the error in thier ways.
#3. Again, I don’t wish to pass judgement on the evil-doer. Fred Phelps is terrible at this, and does more harm than good in bringing light to the subject. It is the “lobbying of the lifestyle” that I am against. It should not be presented to our youth as a healthy alternative lifestyle. (But I’ve already covered that) It’s like saying that all policemen HATE thieves. They don’t. Most cops don’t harbor any hate. But they must arrest them, nothing personal.
Thanks Misty! Wil, I’ll have to get back tomorrow. I’m gonna go after your comment that “We are all born inherently bi-sexual”. Really, we are all born inherently addicted to crack-cocaine, too. We just have to try it once to realize it.
http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/homophobic
Comment posted by Mark on 01/26/06 2:46 PM.I hereby coin a new term:
Homosympatic: one who opposses the open lobbying for a public acceptance of the gay lifestyle, while remaining sympathetic to the individuals that are a part of it.
Comment posted by Mark on 01/26/06 2:57 PM.Wow! This is a most interesting example of “getting off on a tangent.”
I hope the spelling and grammar in this post is forgiven, as well as the content.
To address the poster, I will briefly say that as a marketing tool,it definitely grabbed my attention. Artistically, I don’t have the background to make an informed critique, but I can see that it could be viewed as making an artistic statement, and not simply a social one. As a movie-goer, I believe this poster to be as appealing as many others being distributed.
To address the other subject matter of these posts, I will say that I personally believe that this is all a matter of personal freedom. However we live our lives, whether in or out of a myriad of social, sexual, religious, or political closets, we have a responsibility to be tolerant towards all others who chose to step out and be recognized. All moralities aside, for a moment, please take another moment to consider the fact that as we struggle to all find a little space on this rapidly crowding planet, we must see each other as the great extended family that we really truly are. I hope that we all remember that love, in one form or another, is what truly binds us all. Let love open your eyes, not blind you to the beauty you can appreciate and express every day.
Comment posted by earthcaress on 01/27/06 2:02 AM.Ok Will. You are exactly right in a lot of your points, but the points you make don’t make homosexuality morally viable.
Some like strawberries, some like chocolate. That is true. But what if God doesn’t want us to eat strawberry. What if he told us not to. If we tried it anyways, there would surely be a large group of folks who would prefer it. It IS a good thing to love one another, men and women. But it is forbidden to have sexual relations with someone of the same sex. I’m not saying that it isn’t pleasurable. I’m not even saying that some good can’t come from it (avoiding suicidal tendencies is a good thing).
What I’m saying is that when we are left to our own opinions of right and wrong, we can find lots of good things about something that is wrong. Now, if I am a truely loving person, and my first experiences with sexual stimulation are of a homosexual nature, then the love and sexuality get tied together and POW…I’m gay. I didn’t choose it, and I won’t likely be able to change it. But that doesn’t make it right. This is why society needs to stop pushing this openness to homosexuality. It is self replicating. Now someone might say “my first sexual stimulations weren’t homosexual in nature, but I’m still gay.” I never said that your first sexual stimulations had to include genital arousal, or that it has to occur when you are a teenager. We can’t possibly say where the influence came from for each individual. But when the SOURCE influences are limited, you’ll see a decline in homosexual oriented adults. If the SOURCE influences are great in number, thanks to internet, TV and now motion pictures, the odds of one’s mind connecting love of fellow man (which is a good thing) with SEXUALITY, an increase is seen. This is the path we are on. So yes, I guess we are all inherently “bi-sexual”, if by “bi-sexual” you mean “capable of associating sexual arousal with love”. Even many hetero relationships are based on sex, and the love within some homosexual relationships put the hetero relationships to shame. That doesn’t make it right. I don’t want anyone that is gay to feel guilty about it, we all have sins. But I would appreciate it if they could see that we are damaging society by advertising the lifestyle. I know they didn’t choose it. But they ARE choosing to promote it. If you think that the influence these public debates over legal gay marriage in the states has no effect on the so-called “natural percentage of homosexuals” in the population, you are dead wrong. In ten years there will be more homosexual people per capita than ever before. And, no, that will not be proof that it is a natural occurance. On the contrary, it will prove that the widespread availability of media (tv,internet,movies,music) that promote homosexuality and the “we will accept you for who you are when you’re gay, when bigots do not” CAN influence sexual orientation. I know that was a run-on sentence.
I once was at a restaurant where a gay couple (men) were kissing and laughing and looking around. It was like they were saying “in your face!” But what they were really saying was “in your children’s face” which angered me beyond what I am capable of writing here. I knew they were gay before those antics. So did all the other grown-ups. But the kids didn’t. They didn’t have to do that. Now it is a piece of forbidden candy in the back of thier minds waiting to emerge when they enter puberty. If any of my kid’s end up gay, I will still love them and accept them for who they are. But I will not celebrate their breaking God’s law. I will be angry at society for winning the battle of shaping my children’s perception of love and sexuality.
You say “all people should have the option to be homosexual”. But I hear you say all people should have the option to accept or reject moral teaching. Fine. This brings me back to the need of God’s law. Whether we accept the bible or not as God’s law we should strive to obey God’s law. Which means we must seek the TRUTH of God’s law. (This is easy for Bible beleivers, because it is already written) If you are a God believer, but not a bible believer, you can still come to the conclusion that it is wrong. But only if you believe in God, and that He created us by design, not by evolving us from fish. (I won’t go into evolution here, but please don’t get me wrong, evolution is a very important study. However, it should never negate our Creator). If you don’t believe in ANY TYPE of God or God’s law, then you might as well quit reading. ANY morality is empty without God. If you do believe in God, then keep reading, and please comment.
So let’s start from the very beginning. Just pure philosophy, outside the bible, not talking about homosexuality here. Okay?
Truth #1. God created the universe, the world, and all of it’s inhabitants. How he did it is beyond any of us to understand. Perhaps some biological evolution was a part of it, I don’t know, and it’s irrelevant to this topic.
Truth #2. Sinful behaviour displeases God. (I’m not defining what sinful behaviour is yet - I’m just saying sinful behaviour that we can all agree is sinful behaviour). In order to avoid taking away our free will, he has a perfect law. We are free to obey or not to obey His perfect law.
Truth #3. We must accept that God’s law is perfect in all ways. And that whether we understand it or not, it should be obeyed. If not, it is sin. Whether different “sins” have varying degrees of “displeasing God” is not relevant to this discussion.
Truth #4. God is a personal being, he is perfect, and therefore capable of every emotion that we humans are capable of. Happy, sad, disapointment, joy,—you name it, He understands. He is not just a ball of energy. He is omnipresent and knows each of us by name.
Now, I want you to review that list, make sure you agree with those 4 things. Again, I’m not talking about homosexuality here. Just those 4 truths. This is the foundation of a truely moral way of living. If you have no objections (atheist’s follie ignored) then I will finish up this apology in my next post.
Comment posted by Mark on 02/1/06 2:04 PM.Now, in my next post, if I demonstrate an undeniable understanding that God disapproves of homosexuality, will you close your ears because the road is too difficult? In other words, would you knowingly and willfully abandon the truth and hold fast to a lie? Hypothetically that is. If I were to demonstrate that, would you accept the truth? And start down the road to reform?
Comment posted by Mark on 02/1/06 7:00 PM.Dear admin,
I came to this website via a link sent from a friend. A part of that message said:
Seen That Poster Before?
Wonder why the BBM poster sent tingles down your spine? It’s not the
subject mater, it’s because it was designed to recall the poster from
1997’s Titanic.
Compare:
http://www.posterwire.com/archives/2005/11/21/the-cowboy-way
He doesn’t recall exactly how he came here but said it might have been through imdb.com.
Comment posted by Wil on 02/2/06 10:23 PM.Apologies and thanks to all again for tolerating this and or participating.
FRC and similar groups are biased organizarition that will look for statistics that support their view. But bias is unavoidable in any human conducted research. Regardess, homosexual relationships might last longer if marriage or the like were allowed and the statistical tendencies that separate, not differences, would shrink. Therefore, it may be that preventing gays from marrying may help statistics show the higher occurance of infidelity, lower number of children being raised, etc. More importantly, statistics may show trends but it says nothing of the individual. It is unfair to judge anyone based upon what someone else has done.
Now, I admit there are very weak-minded people out there and on some level, they have to be protected. But a movie is for entertainment. Sadly, the news is too. I would hope we’d do more to educate people than shield them from reality. And they need to know that movies aren’t real but sometimes they do represent real life. Personally, what I know of on tv and movies out there is mostly crap and a few good things here and there. But it’s not going to make me or the people I know do anything except maybe see or avoid something made by the same people. I don’t see an unhealthy number of vigilantes, boxers or police out there.
I do think homophobia is an inaccurate word for many people. There are many, many people who do not approve of homosexuality but are very accepting of gays. Sorry that a friendlier word probably won’t catch on as it should.
And to compare sexuality to being addicted to cocaine?! I’m surprised at that remark. Cocaine has physically addictive and harmful properties. If gay sex were addictive, well, I’m sure many lives would be VERY different.
Now if God didn’t want his followers to eat strawberries, then his FOLLOWERS probably shouldn’t eat them. And if someone does eat strawberries, Gods followers may think it’s wrong and shun hi m, perhaps even try to change him, but since no one is getting harmed, in this world that we are trying to be fair to others, they must accept them in a larger society as Catholics must accept Protestants. We must accept people who eat pork, people who are atheist, people who like to play video games and even people that are left-handed or even gay.
Does accepting homosexuals mean you see more of them? Of course! That’s how ghettos have formed. Big cities that tend to have more liberal thinking will have more people that accept gays. Wouldn’t you rather live in a town where you could be yourself and not live in fear than a place where you had to live a lie where if people knew just one fact about you having nothing to do with your personality or how you treat others could make them turn against you? Ennis and Jack from the movie longed for such a place but it didn’t exist in hteir place at that time. You want a place without homosexuals? Go to Korea. They don’t have any…so they say. Think that’s true?
And then it goes back to religion. Again, if that is the basis of your argument then there is no point in making it here.
“So let’s start from the very beginning. Just pure philosophy, outside the bible, not talking about homosexuality here. Okay?”
Outside of the bible with God mentioned in every “Truth” listed? Not acceptable. Give a good reason against homosexuality that doesn’t require mentioning the bible or God and a lot of people will listen. As mentioned before, you are free to believe what you will as we all are. But we need to be open to gays as we need to be open to people who belive it’s wrong to be gay. Such people exist. They always will. Some people can change to behave one way or the other. Some will never change. I simply belive we all have the right to life and the pursuit of happiness unless we attempt to take it away from others.
Comment posted by Wil on 02/2/06 11:35 PM.“Outside of the bible with God mentioned in every “Truth†listed? Not acceptable.”
You didn’t read what I said. I said, outside the bible, BUT you must believe in God. Polls show that 98% of Americans believe in SOME type of God. Yes, God is a part of those truths. I also said, I WASN”T talking about homosexuality. What exactly in those 4 truths do you disagree with? Likely, nothing. But you see where I am headed.
Yesterday, Jacob Robida in Massachusetts took a hatchet and a gun into a gay bar and started harming people. 3 people injured, one shot in the face, and one (perhaps the same one) is in critcal condition.
This is horrible. The police have found Nazi regalia and anti-Semitic writings in his bedroom. He is still on the loose.
Jesus said “let he who has no sins cast the first stone”. But this nutcase seems to think that he is allowed to dole out punishment for his own opinions. Yes, I said opinions.
Just because I am a part of this discussion does NOT mean that any harm should be done to ANYONE. Is there a way to debate these things without inadvertently leading some nutcase to harmful action? I feel like it is important to discuss the issues, but I don’t want to form any sort of militia against the gay community. I can’t stand this. Why can’t they love thier fellow man (gay and lesbian included) AND refute homosexuality? It is a real problem, and when things like this happen, it is a problem worse than homosexuality itself. Not only has the message that I preach been harmed, but 3 lives have been harmed in ways (physical and emotional) that will likely not heal for a very long time, if ever. I’m not trying to be righteous when I say this, I mean it: I pray for those victims that they recover from this lunatics damage.
WIL: Good comments. I don’t know what to say right now. I’m ashamed at what appears to be a common link between people like me and that psycho. I would like to comment on a lot of your points, but I just don’t know how to get the message across without putting myself in that wretched camp.
Here’s a little story.
There once was a potter. He made the most beautiful and exquisite bowls and pitchers and the like that anyone had ever seen. One day a patron came into his shop. Amazed by all of the pieces, he approached the potter. “they are all so beautiful” he said. The potter responded, “Not a single one is like any other. I pour my heart into every single piece.” The patron took sveral minutes browsing and cg his favorites. He returned to the potter with two cannisters. The potter smiled at his choices, added up the total, and the patron paid. The patron got into his car with his new purchase. The potter noticed from his window that the man sat for a long in the parking space. Finally, the man got out of his car, placed the canisters on the doorstep of the potter’s shop, and got back into his car, where he kept the ornate lids to the canisters, and started the car to leave. The potter ran out to stop him. “Is there something wrong?” asked the potter. The patron said, “I really just wanted these ornate lids. I felt it a shame to just throw out the canisteres, so I left them for you.”
“Had I known that you were going to separate the parts, I wouldn’t…” but the potter was interupted.
“I paid the price you asked for. Now the peices are mine, to do with what I like. Perhaps I should have thrown the cannisters out secretly, so that your feelings wouldn’t have been hurt. I’m sorry, but displaying the lids alone is why I purchased them.”
“You are right.” said the potter. “They belong to you now. You are free to do what you like”. The stunned potter collected the lidless canisters and returned to his shop, where he began to fashion replacement lids to sell with them.
This is how I believe God feels. He loves us very much. And he will always take us back. He will not take away our freedom to do with his gifts what we like. It is our choice. But in the beginning, God intended a certain beauty in His creation. We should strive to live in a way that fulfills His vision.
Comment posted by Mark on 02/3/06 8:44 AM.Haha. Funny Mark and cry your eyes out like everyone else. Go see the movie. Haha.
Comment posted by observer on 02/6/06 2:06 AM.All of my posts negated by a single mocking. Good job observer. You really stuck it to me.
As for reasons to not be gay that don’t have to do with God, there are plenty. But no, lots of people don’t listen. The link I listed earlier to the FRC does not create it’s own statistics to further it’s agenda. All of it’s facts come from sources like the US Census. So you see, even when there’s data, the proponents tend to scream “BIAS”. I honestly think there are a lot of people that know deep down inside that what they are doing is wrong. They argue and argue until even they believe it is acceptable. And the nation supports the delusion with “tolerance” making it even harder for them break ranks. When Cheryl Swoopes turned lesbian last year, the entire gay community shunned her because she said she wasn’t born gay. Where’s the tolerance?
Comment posted by Mark on 02/6/06 6:32 AM.Wowee! I leave a comment two months ago and come back to see I stirred up quite a discussion. First, Frakety Frak claims to feel remorse for my parents’ selfish act of not teaching me about the birds and the bees. Yeah, that’s why I’m gay. I just never heard about heterosexuality.
This fella, Mark, seems to think gay folks can just try harder and heterosexual desire will come forth. Tried that. Didn’t work. Now I know true love and the only problem with that is people like Mark.
Reading on, Mark “comes out” as the fundamentalist Christian that he is, linking to some of the most virulent anti-gay organizations out there. Hey Mark, I wonder if your gay family members appreciate your assertion that your ability to host them in your home and give them hugs somehow makes you not anti-gay. Do they know you “wish they could see the error in thier (sic) ways”? That’s so sanctimonious, hardly “homosympatic.”
Then, my tongue-in-cheek suggestions for women to drag their men to the movie manage to “disgust” Yekkkaterina. “You are a gay woman-hater–the worst kind” she huffs. Dig deep, Yekka. Find a sense of humor.
With all the awards and stellar reviews, Yekka’s opinion that this is a mediocre story is clearly in the minority on this one. Yes, “Alma” is a sympathetic character in this movie. You’re supposed to feel for her. And as I said in my first review, Ennis, like many gay men who marry a woman, is a lousy husband. Imagine a world where he could have spared her that pain by following his true love.
Mark further reveals what I call heterosexual arrogance with this comment: “I once was at a restaurant where a gay couple (men) were kissing and laughing and looking around. It was like they were saying ‘in your face!’ But what they were really saying was ‘in your children’s face’ which angered me beyond what I am capable of writing here.” We all see heterosexual displays of affection all day long in the media, on park benches, and yes, even in restaurants. If you’re so interested in treating people the same, where’s your outrage about all this heterosexual smooching going on in public? I just was on a plane where a gay man felt comfortable enough to put his arm around his partner. Imagine a world where that wouldn’t have even caught my eye.
Finally, about the poster, I had some fun with it and made a Christmas card with myself and my partner as stand-ins. By now, I’m sure you’ve all seen the versions with “W” and Cheney, and with Bert and Ernie.
Comment posted by Marty on 02/7/06 1:12 AM.Mark,
You have no idea how hurtful these types of screeds are, and how enervating it is for gay people to have to hear them in various forms day after day. I’m sure you don’t mean it, or perhaps you do, but ultimately what you are saying to gay people is that down in their core, no matter what they do, they are bad people. I’m sure you believe that by saying these things you are punishing the sin an not the sinner, but I can tell you that for people on the receiving end of that punishment, there is no difference. Doctor, truck driver, priest or prostitute, sexual or abstinent, no lifestyle change will make someone who isn’t attracted to people of the opposite sex into someone who is.
Comment posted by Eric on 02/7/06 4:56 AM.They are NOT bad people. But the actions are bad. I will stop making that point if they stop fighting in our public square for acceptance of the actions. I DO accept all people for who they are. But not for what they do. Don’t think that they are non-seperable, because if you do then you ARE defined by your actions. That includes the things you have done that you are truely ashamed of (like shoplifting when you were a kid). Your person CAN be separated from your actions in times of weakness. That’s why sins are forgivable. It is the person that I accept.
But what you are suggesting is that we don’t bring criminals to justice because we shouldn’t make them feel like bad people. (No, I’m not calling gay people criminals, it’s just an example)
Lastly, I don’t expect someone who is not attracted to someone of the opposite sex to suddenly become attracted to someone of the opposite sex. These things take time. The first step is to realize and admit that it is a problem. I guess that’s how my scrolls are so hurtful. They open gay peoples eyes momentarily to a mirror. They then have a choice to break the mirror and pretend they never saw it and go back to thier happy lives, OR start down the road of reform which likely includes a long period of depression. It is a horrible diabolical trap, I know. From there it is a long difficult road, but there are huge groups of people that have succeeded. And even for those who haven’t succeeded, but are trying, God is well pleased. Even successful ones don’t neccesarily become attracted to someone of the opposite sex. But they DO cease the homosexual practices of sexuality. They may even slip back. Just as I do with my own sinful behaviours of sexual deviency with women (it’s no different). But we press on, and repent, and offer our weaknesses up to God. It is proof that we need Him so much more.
Comment posted by Mark on 02/7/06 7:05 AM.This site will get you started.
http://www.exodus-international.org/testimonials_left_HomoSexuality.shtml
http://www.exodus-international.org
Comment posted by Mark on 02/7/06 7:16 AM.Mark,
I know you believe you are talking only about actions not people. Take it from the people who’ve been there, being gay has nothing to do with actions. You can be celibate for years, (which I gather is what your relgion recommends gay people do) but it still doesn’t make you straight. Any gay teenager and any gay senior can tell you, you are gay before you first have sex and still gay after you stop. All anyone wants is the opportunity to have crushes, date and fall in love. And once you’ve known the experience of being in love and being loved in return, it’s very difficult, even wrong, to pretend to love someone you don’t. What I think is special about the movie, at least for gay people, is that it shows what love feels like from the point of view of the people who are experiencing it, not just what it looks like to the outside world.
Comment posted by Eric on 02/7/06 10:19 AM.The movie probably does portray a wonderful love. This is the problem. It makes everyone understand that good people deserve to feel good feelings. We should all be able to experience love. I agree with all of that. But in the fine print, it says “even at the expense God’s word”.
They could spin a movie to make smoking a cool thing to do. That doesn’t make it good for you. But more people would smoke because of it.
By the way, you haven’t really disagreed with me on the points I make, but rather you give reasons why being gay should be a special exception. Go to the website and read some testimonies.
http://www.exodus-international.org/testimonials_left_HomoSexuality.shtml
Comment posted by Mark on 02/7/06 11:06 AM.Here’s a good article.
Comment posted by Mark on 02/7/06 12:15 PM.http://www.narth.com/docs/coll-harren.html
Mark,
I do agree that if your sincerely held beliefs and your religion demand that you not have sex with someone of the same sex, then you shouldn’t have that kind of sex. I know Exodus very well. People I’ve met from there are, for the most part, nice, honest and sincere. Exodus is largely about helping people lessen their attraction to people of the same sex, primarily through religious reflection and talk therapy. They don’t spend much time on helping people become attracted to the opposite sex. Again, if you are gay and your religion requires that you not have sex with someone of the same sex and Exodus is helpful in coming to peace with that requirement, then it seems to me that they are doing some good.
Comment posted by Eric on 02/7/06 12:28 PM.Well said Eric. (but you’re creeping towards my old danger of abandoning true religion for the sake of homosexuality…the diabolical trump card) As for becoming attracted to someone of the opposite sex, it’s really just one step at a time. But here is a snippet from another article:
Sexual-Orientation Change is Possible
If any conclusions can be drawn from the literature, it is that change in sexual orientation is possible.For instance, in their review of the literature on once-married lesbians, Bridges and Croteau (1994) found that 25-50% of lesbians in various reports had once been in heterosexual marriages. While heterosexual marriage alone may not be a complete gauge of sexual orientation, the reasons for the marriage should offer some insight into the sexual identity of the women at the time. Kirkpatrick (1988) reported that once-married lesbian women often married because they were in love with their husbands. In examining the reasons for the shift in sexual expression, Charbonneau and Lander (1991) found two broad explanations. One group felt they had always been lesbian and were becoming true to themselves. However, another group viewed their change as a “choice among sexual options.” If counselors are not to assist clients in their wishes for a shift in sexual orientation, how would ACA’s governing council wish for counselors to respond to such women wanting to become more settled in their choice of a lesbian identity?
More practically, I do not know with certainty if I have ever been successful in “changing” a person’s sexual orientation since I do not know how to precisely define sexual orientation, or if it is even a valid clinical concept. However, I have assisted clients who were, in the beginning of mental health counseling, primarily attracted to those of the same gender, who declare they are now primarily attracted to the opposite gender. I fear that resolutions such as passed by APA and ACA will prevent such outcomes, which are viewed quite positively by the clients who have experienced them.
The complete article found here:
Comment posted by Mark on 02/7/06 1:09 PM.http://www.narth.com/docs/attemptstomodify.html
Marty, you use adjectives in place of substance.
“Reading on, Mark “comes out†as the fundamentalist Christian that he is, linking to some of the most virulent anti-gay organizations out there.
If I remove the negative connotations that you put in that sentance, and leave in only the substance, you really just wrote this:
“Mark is a fundamentalist Christian. He Has given links to some anti-gay organizations.”
That’s true Marty. But they are not “virulent” and being a fundamentalist Christian is not an evil thing as you lead the readers to believe. Be factual please, and save the adjectives for your rant in the car on your way home.
“And as I said in my first review, Ennis, like many gay men who marry a woman, is a lousy husband. Imagine a world where he could have spared her that pain by following his true love.”
So what you’re saying is that in order to spare innocent women “the pain of broken marriages” we must accept openly homosexuality? That’s the strangest thing I’ve ever heard. It’s like a threat, do you see that? “If society would just accept homosexuality, gay men wouldn’t have to work down the hard road of reform, which ,for those in denial, can lead to broken homes. Yes, she’s a victim, but whos the bigger victim here? The gay man who had an affair that’s who!” Logic at it’s best (sarc).
Comment posted by Mark on 02/7/06 1:55 PM.Mark,
There’s not too much I can say about the article you cited about women who’ve had partners of different genders. My first reaction is to say what the women who “viewed their change as a “choice among sexual options†are decribing is bisexuality. However, my experience in this area is primarily with Exodus, which